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Post by gunther on Feb 21, 2011 12:10:47 GMT -5
And where do they work? How often and for what wage? OK. I am a long time pro, a real trained and experienced professional who's worked with notables of the day for real serious money -- I'm union. Every day I peruse Craigslist hoping to find others of my capability for the purpose of clubdating mostly and for a decent non-union wage and I find Craigslist horribly depressing. People who call themselves "pro" just aren't, especially drummers who are drum owners, only, who have no rudiments in, don't understand what a hi-hat is, never looked at a piece of sheet music, can barely count to three or four properly, have no idea what pulse is, time, play non-sequitur fills "because I can" which has no bearing on anything except to ego stroke, and these non-sequitur fills are too many notes not even counted out properly, but land well before or after the beat. It's madness for any real professional to have to contend with. So, I don't, I won't no matter what the money is ... which is usually squat for hacks.
Hacks need to step aside out of the world of professional musicians and keep it as a nice little hobby to wow the spouse or unsuspecting neighbors. Real genuine bona fide musicians must organize against hacks and low wage venues to guarantee LIFE for this vast braindead divided community -- give it something vibrant, high quality and for a real living wage for those who've spent their whole lives perfecting their art. And I am talking about actual artists, not wannabees who cannot hear themselves as others hear them. Why? They never learned to shut up and listen to begin with.
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Post by lennylongear on Feb 21, 2011 14:21:51 GMT -5
we used to have agents (shudder!) who weeded out the Hacks, and kept the pay decent - nowadays, clubowners with no concept of talent or ability fill the stages with whatever local band has the most friends who will show up and spend money.....so if you really want to see change, you need to find a way to force owners to improve their hiring practices, it's a mostly a waste of effort to appeal to the musicians....and one more thing - the serious pros all left this area years ago, cause they saw the way things were going - so if you don't wanna live in a union state, you don't get union standards....
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Post by georgiegeorge on Feb 21, 2011 14:38:06 GMT -5
Hello:The real pros are , ahh, working and out on the road. They are busy enough that they really don't have the time or need to be on here, or anywhere else for that matter. I read Bruce Springstein's book and he clearly states he was always too busy with his career, recording, writing to get into drugs. That life style was an option that never presented itself to him or anyone close to him. Real pros are consumed by their work, and they love it that way. For a real pro, his music comes first, even before himself. He does'nt worry about money, cause he knows he will always have it just by job security. Worrying about money is secondary. He is always consumed with his music and believe it or not, his fans. They are his number one concern.
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Post by georgiegeorge on Feb 21, 2011 14:43:26 GMT -5
Also, Im a member of 257, in Nashville. Union has taken a back seat since the internet has come alive. Now you can do it all yourself...fan club, albums sales, promotions, schedule of appearances, it's all do-it-yourself. The big three record companies are watching, but you have to really get high on the ladder to have them come calling.
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Post by gunther on Feb 22, 2011 14:32:16 GMT -5
Nashville (Tennessee) is a right to work state like Florida. Union menbers have always taken a back seat not to the Internet, because of folks willing to undercut your fees down to nothing. And the "big three record companies" could care less about what's posted on the net for anything less than several hundred thousand views on one's music or video page. Even then, doesn't make a bit of difference. All the want is the next cookie cutter act they can invest their $750,000 into a CD and distribution ... and you're stuck with the bill. Union busting seems to be the current trend among the Right Wing and it's a pity since it undermines quality, wages, venues, royalties and everything else that might matter to professional working musicians. KEEP UNIONS STRONG! Join today and support them no matter where you are. Also, Im a member of 257, in Nashville. Union has taken a back seat since the internet has come alive. Now you can do it all yourself...fan club, albums sales, promotions, schedule of appearances, it's all do-it-yourself. The big three record companies are watching, but you have to really get high on the ladder to have them come calling.
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Post by gunther on Feb 22, 2011 14:42:03 GMT -5
What's this? "For a real pro, his music comes first, even before himself. He doesn't worry about money, cause he knows he will always have it just by job security." What utter rubbish. Read the biography of James Jamerson, Bud Powell, Charlie Parker, Chuck Negron and WAY too many to list to know otherwise. Even the late, great Jaco Pastorious died a penniless bum -- his talent and accomplishments meant nothing in the end. Because you might be a professional (i.e., very proficient at one's instrument and actually working for a living wage) those are two different things -- the former no guarantee of anything. That's why there's agents, unions because corporations will chew you up and spit you out for "the next big thing" even if one is a seasoned "A Team" recording session player." Go to NYC, LA, Kansas City, New Orleans and see how many great players there are on street corners blowing, pounding, singing for chump change. There aren't all that many touring jobs worth a crap for too many musicians as well. Forget about finding some low wage day job for many of these very special people. The creative spirit has a very hard time dealing with the mundane and submitting to soulless corporate power. The creative mind must create and the society must treat these very special people for who and what they are -- the dreamers of what could be. Hello:The real pros are , ahh, working and out on the road. They are busy enough that they really don't have the time or need to be on here, or anywhere else for that matter. I read Bruce Springstein's book and he clearly states he was always too busy with his career, recording, writing to get into drugs. That life style was an option that never presented itself to him or anyone close to him. Real pros are consumed by their work, and they love it that way. For a real pro, his music comes first, even before himself. He does'nt worry about money, cause he knows he will always have it just by job security. Worrying about money is secondary. He is always consumed with his music and believe it or not, his fans. They are his number one concern.
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Post by bassgruv on Feb 23, 2011 18:04:06 GMT -5
Some thoughts on this discussion: I don't think the situation here has anything to do with the union. The Musicians Union stopped being a factor long ago. I used to be a member but quit back in 1982. My band got stiffed on a gig and the best suggestion my Union guy had was to hire a lawyer. The union used to be good for occasional work with traveling acts and such but I can't imagine ever getting enough work to create serious income, and I'm talking about up north where unions have been strong. Maybe it's different here, I've been here less than a year and am still adjusting.
I believe club owners hire bands not to make money but because they like having live music to create a certain atmosphere. I think most club owners are happy to just break even on bands. Years ago clubs held a lot more people. Most clubs have downsized to the point where it's almost impossible for a band to draw enough people to make a real difference on the bottom line. Times have changed and it's a rare Band that can even claim a serious following. Why? I think musicians have become incredibly lazy. Nobody wants to rehearse. Too many players imagine themselves to be such great players that they can walk into a gig with little or no rehearsal and just nail it. They may get through the gig but the overall effect is loose and unimpressive.
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Post by gunther on Feb 24, 2011 0:16:06 GMT -5
Unions are still a factor for high end players and those who can read, write, arrange. Forget bars and bar bands. Most suck anyway and couldn't get a strong following if they stood on their head. No, I'm talking about serious acts like in NYC, Las Vegas, LA, Kansas City, Seattle where there's real professionals playing in professional settings like theaters, dinner clubs or very high end corporate events and private parties. You won't find anyone in any orchestra who isn't union. You won't find anyone on a major label or recording for a major label who isn't union. For those people, unions guarantee top wages, the best working conditions and protections from unscrupulous business types. I guess this area is for ... hacks. I read some anti-union nonsense and I know immediately we have fools who settle for diddly squat wages and crap musicians who can barely count to three or four properly. Certainly these types could never play along with records properly much less listen to the source material without interruption much less TRANSCRIBE something! God forbid someone looks a sheet music in this area! No. This is Stevie Ray Vaughn clone land. There's no Grant Greens or Ed Bickerts around here. No Ray Browns nor Lee Morgans around here. This is tattoo city ... as seen on TV land. No wonder there's no union. The "musicians" aren't even dedicated enough to the art to care about making a proper living at it actually creating at a high aesthestic level. It's an idiots paradise in Florida. BTW ... all those bands you see on your TV? Union. Some thoughts on this discussion: I don't think the situation here has anything to do with the union. The Musicians Union stopped being a factor long ago. I used to be a member but quit back in 1982. My band got stiffed on a gig and the best suggestion my Union guy had was to hire a lawyer. The union used to be good for occasional work with traveling acts and such but I can't imagine ever getting enough work to create serious income, and I'm talking about up north where unions have been strong. Maybe it's different here, I've been here less than a year and am still adjusting. I believe club owners hire bands not to make money but because they like having live music to create a certain atmosphere. I think most club owners are happy to just break even on bands. Years ago clubs held a lot more people. Most clubs have downsized to the point where it's almost impossible for a band to draw enough people to make a real difference on the bottom line. Times have changed and it's a rare Band that can even claim a serious following. Why? I think musicians have become incredibly lazy. Nobody wants to rehearse. Too many players imagine themselves to be such great players that they can walk into a gig with little or no rehearsal and just nail it. They may get through the gig but the overall effect is loose and unimpressive.
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Post by bassgruv on Feb 24, 2011 8:43:01 GMT -5
You know Gunther, I agree with everything you say. I'm not anti Union. The Union has protected the ability of musician's to make decent pay, but what good is decent pay when there is no work to be had?
I just think the decline of live music is a much broader issue. People only invest time and effort into work that has a reasonable expectation of some kind of monetary reward. I've worked with amazing musicians who could play jazz with the best but they are accountants, investment advisers, school teachers and computer repairmen.
Some other factors should be considered. For example, I think that recorded music in clubs should be illegal and any club that wants music should be required to hire musicians. The same for any other business that wants music. I know that may seem radical but why should those businesses have free use of something that musicians have created through sacrifice and hard work? That would be a good place for the union to start fighting. Can you imagine the work that would create for musicians? We musician's failed to foresee how technology would change things. Before there were high powered sound systems, any business owner who wanted music had to hire real players to create it. Now all they need do is plug in their stereo and play their pirated mp3 files. We missed the boat!
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Post by woodbutcher on Feb 24, 2011 13:41:25 GMT -5
The bottom line is there are too many hobbyists, hacks, snowbirds and children in the area willing to work for their bar tab or less. This has just driven down the mean wage of playing here. It's all become so common that local patrons don't know good from bad any more. If patrons started complaining about bad bands and stopped going to places that hire them, things would change. ............but that's not going to happen.
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Post by gunther on Feb 25, 2011 23:41:19 GMT -5
Perhaps we actual living and breathing muscians might strategize how to eliminate the riff-raff, hacks, snowbirds, lamers, poseurs and get before venue owners and work out how to produce a situation where there's actually something to listen to (first and foremost and not be some live reality show of clowns in hats or something for drunks) and which said venue holder is knowledgable enough to support a potential goldmine when he/she sees it.
Yes, it's a long shot. Realize none of these venues are union, look upon hacks posing as musicians as sub-human (by these people's behaviors and how they present themselves) and want something for nothing. Surely there's 1) actual artists who can get together and run down a set of standards BOOM ('cause real professionals can read music and/or have played certain material so many times one could do it professionally in their sleep) -- Reference; how James Jamerson did Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On" -- lying on the floor on his back drunk outta his mind.
I'm jes' saying. The real artists must take responsibility for the mess we've allowed OUR territory and venues to deteriorate into.
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Post by gunther on Feb 28, 2011 15:55:03 GMT -5
I was hoping this site might turn out to be different than Craigslist. It isn't. Same lame level "musicians" posting up themselves as if they're real players, on par with Michael Waldren, Al Jackson or someone. I've worked with Waldren. A monster. A real, genuine, real drummer. Danny Gotlieb, too. And what do I see? HACKS who are clueless, who never really worked that hard and learning to play music, advertising themselves as "soul, funk, R&B" guys WHEN THEY ARE PLAIN NOT! This guy is LAZY, DOES NOT LISTEN, CAN'T BE IN THE MOMENT, CAN'T SPEAK THE LANGUAGE OF MUSIC, TUNES OUT INTO LA-LA LAND, DISPERSES OFF INTO SOME OTHER BEAT AT CRITICAL POINTS OF A SONG LIKE THE BRIDGE OR B SECTIONS, and obviously never trained, sat with metronone, a piece of sheet music, ever read down a tune, etc., etc. But Oh, no! I post something to that effect because I AM A REAL TRAINED WORKING MUSICIAN but this and Craigslist seem to pander to the incapable.
KEEP THE QUALITY OF ART AND MUSIC ALIVE! GUARANTEE THAT QUALITY BY SUPPORTING YOUR LOCAL UNION MUSICIANS AND ARTISTS. IF IT'S "UNION" ON THE LABEL, REST ASSURED OF THE QUALITY. Yours truly, Gunther, Local 802, NYC, baby!
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Post by woodbutcher on Feb 28, 2011 17:52:08 GMT -5
.....so your idea of how to make this better than Craigslist is to just start flaming?
I know Danny Gottlieb. He would never express himself in such a negative manner.
If this guy can't play or is just another uneducated wannabe, good musicians will figure that out during the audition.
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Post by Fight Another Day on Mar 1, 2011 8:47:30 GMT -5
If this guy can't play or is just another uneducated wannabe, good musicians will figure that out during the audition. Exactly!
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Post by gunther on Mar 1, 2011 11:12:27 GMT -5
Yeah. You "know Danny Gotlieb," and because he might not express opinions on a freakin' webpage other professionals shouldn't and because doesn't he/she is just a phony? Uneducated or a wannabee? "I know Danny Gottlieb. He would never express himself in such a negative manner." What a load! "Never," dude? Should have been with us at the University of Miami when when we were students. Yeah. Danny was a nice guy. And Jaco wasn't particularly. I worked with him, too. I guess Jaco wasn't a professional by your weirdo standards 'cause he was "negative (critical)"? How about Buddy Rich? He was very "negative," huh? Just because he DEMANDED professionality with his band? Which might include having one's basic rudiments in on their instruments like too many "drummers" and other "musicians" in this area plain do not, making playing music an impossibility for actual professional people like myself, huh? How about lesser known real live professional musicians like Larry Warilow? Fantastic arranger, arranged from everyone from Mel Torme to Nina Simone. He was "negative," saying some very brutal truths from his viewpoint and occassionally throwing his guitar straight up against a wall. He arranged for Jaco, too. He ripped musicians who couldn't pull off his riffs, who dragged the time, who made more clams than the Gulf of Mexico. But, your weirdo standards, they would be just uneducated and wannabees? So, the gist of your claim is because is "negative (critical)" one is not a professional, uneducated and a wannabee? Tell that to Buddy Rich or his many sidemen who went on to great careers on their own like Warilow, Jaco and even me. Sir, you yourself, based on your "logic" can't play yourself and are no professional by weirdo ooga booga about me, based on some words on a webpage? You can't see your own negativity about me personally in your own post? Like I said ... this must be Craigslist II where professionals aren't because of the Goddamnedest reasons and "logic" and where human beings who are professionals but who behave like human beings "aren't" because of arbitrary standards of the less the professional? .....so your idea of how to make this better than Craigslist is to just start flaming? I know Danny Gottlieb. He would never express himself in such a negative manner. If this guy can't play or is just another uneducated wannabe, good musicians will figure that out during the audition.
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